Great Amerikans

Great Amerikans. A while back I happanstanced upon a post calling Martin Luther King a Great American.

The post continued: Feels proud to be an American after watching boycott because we have the power to change the system. Hats off to Martin Luther King for being a peace messenger!

Here is my little ranting rebuttal:

My contention is not with your post praising a Great Man, a Prophet of sorts, a spokesmen for and proponent of Peace. My contention is the correlation that is made with a Leader for Human Rights (albeit rights of Blacks within the Amerikan paradigm at the time – but still with Love, Peace, and Equality FOR ALL and still applicable NOW) and the (then? now?) ‘Amerikan ideal.’

Martin Luther King, Gandhi, and other such great men were fighting against the very entity you are espousing.

You talk about Martin Luther King (MLK) as  one of the best Americans and who influenced our great nation, but before I go on, what defines a ‘great nation’?
Why do we salute flags? Why do we sing anthems proclaiming victories over a fallen ‘enemy? Wasn’t MLK trying to diminish the ‘us’ and ‘them’ division?

Wasn’t he talking about Human Equality?

Does Amerika follow these ideals? Does Amerika embrace the great words spoken over the last 200 years by a myriad of great philosophers, philanthropist, Truth Seekers, Reformers and such that just so happen to live in Amerika?

Would MLK have stepped up (in different time periods and areas of the world) as a leader in civil rights and equality in South Africa? In Northern Iraq as a Kurd? In Palestine?

I believe he would have.

MLK did NOT step up just because he was an American; he talked not just about Blacks in Amerika, he talked about HUMAN RIGHTS and would probably (arguably) have done so in any time period, in any land.
We got to get off this mammalian, territorial, National Pride, us and them, Patriotic Bullshit kick, and begin focusing on the fact that we are all fucking Earthlings; a species that shouldn’t be mere mammals that fight over resources and spew their Alpha Male proverbial sperm & piss all over The Place like wolves, lions, skunks and bears; but have the ability to reason, think logically while being able to think abstractly thus inducing our creative capabilities to make this world – the only one we got – a better place.

There is only Communication among Equals.

He deleted the above sentiment under his post.

I wrote a Post Script/Addendum:

I never thought of you as being into censorship, bro! I hope you at least copied and pasted what I wrote on your wall to mull over at your leisure and think about it. Feel free to post on my wall with your sentiments.

If you are going to write statements like the one above be prepared to defend or discuss what you have written.

Deleting folks’ posts because you disagree with them is very George Bushian. It makes one ponder why you wrote it in the first place. I would still like to hear your rebuttal bro – if you have one, if not, we can just discuss hot chicks, getting drunk and rockNroll, it won’t change the world or make us any smarter, but it is fun…

COMMENTS FROM OTHERS WHO READ THE PARLEY

These comments include a couple from my cousin Lisa (a self proclaimed genius.. I’ll let you decide) and my aunt Patricia (father’s side by marriage) and Nancy (an old church buddy who is a Christian Capitalist and uses Gandhi quotes to help/inspire her clients make more money):

Landis Shook
Well, I am proud to be an American. I don’t change my last name because my father is a drunk and use to beat up on my mother. That he doesn’t have the same values, morals or beliefs I do. I stand by America threw it’s trials and tribulations. MLK did his thing, god bless him for it and he was an American. If he was asked he’d have never denied that. To each his own point of view, I agree.

In closing, Hot Chicks, make me tired, Booze makes my body ache and Rock and Roll give me a headache (please send all 3 over right away).

Douglas C Rapier
You’re espousing some mighty marvelous thoughts that challenge the status quo and posing questions that insist on thoughtful answers.

Michael Turton
BP, seconding DCR.

Dwayne Young
B.P you are dead right!
I have to put my hand up and say i am guilty of being nationalistic at times…a lot of the time without even realizing!
I’m also guilty of spewing Alpha male proverbial B.S too.
(I am making an effort to reform….It’s a constant battle) 😉
It seems nationhood and religons were created to keep people divided.To keep the people bickering and distracted from the real agenda.
Peace sells but who’s buying?
It might be a cliche line but…United we stand divided we fall.

Chase Andre
Thanks for this, Paul.

Robert Thé
World citizen: many tributaries; many stories: one river; one heritage. Look beyond the hype of the Nation State. Time is in too short supply to be soakin’ up that poison.

Matt Bronsil
I love America. I love Taiwan. I’m very proud to say I love them both.

Michael T. Lane
If you lived on one side of a river and the people on the other side of the river killed your child because someone on your side of the river killed one of theirs a week ago and that had been going on for as long as anyone could remember….

peace and love seem to be the virtues of the safe. Until complete and utter forgiveness of even your most hated enemy exists in the world, it is unlikely any philosophy will take root. And until you can vividly imagine what you would do in the aforesaid scenario, you have no right to demand peace of any other.

As it is, we secure peace by preparing for war. That that is humanity’s psychological conclusion means we are little more than the monkeys that Paul affirms we are not. He’s right, but he’s also wrong. He’s right if we not only insist we aren’t monkeys but work to battle that “crush it” attitude we find welling up in ourselves whenever we are challenged. Otherwise, we will stay in this boat till the end of our days..

Chase Andre
then Michael, let’s all be willing to love and forgive even our enemies. Doing so will do more harm to their plight against us than ‘preparing for war’.

If no one will join me, then I’ll do it alone.

someone once said, “The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.”…
peace will never come from killing someone on the other side of the river.

You’re right, I am safe, and I don’t take that safety lightly. I do hope to say if that safety was ever removed, I would still stand resolved knowing what I know now.

For the time being, I think we need to remember we don’t have to be part of that “we” who operates in the vein of insanity.

Patricia Monteiro
You guy are just as bitter with your foul language and angst peace talk. It exposes a side of you that you’re not aware of yourself. And respect alway accompanies peace. Try it with “America” not “Amerika”

Nancy M. Ogilvie
Well said Patricia!!  The USA still affords you that right of freedom of speech (as long as you don’t incite riots with incendiary speech). Also, your friend is wihin his rights to delete whatever he wants from his Wall. By criticizing him, you are saying you are right and he was wrong. You essentially attacked him on his own Wall. I would have deleted your post too. :). Progress is never made by alienating and invalidating the others. A thought to meditate on: “be less intense about your intensity.”

Lisa Davis Owens
Yeaaaa Nancy! But dont 4get BP IS right and any of us that dont bow down to his superiority ARE wrong, just like the meglomaniacs that have controlled some governments throughout history.

Nancy M. Ogilvie
Ouch Lisa! Paul, have you read “power vs force” by David Hawkins?
I highly recommend.

Boston Paul
Greetings all and thank you for your posts. I have learned quite a bit about some of you, and about myself through your eyes. I am also getting to know how some of you feel about me, all much appreciated. I don’t have much time to answer or rebut them all, but I would like to address a few posts now to keep the dialogue going.

Auntie P., my apologies for the F word, in the heat of passion it does slip out and I don’t use the word in these posts but for emphasis. I will continue, however, to use the letter K in Amerika until the Fascist Patriot Act is repealed. If you could, Good Aunt, re-read my meaning about Alpha Males and ponder that a bit, please.

Lisa, I have no idea what you are talking about. If you cannot give a concise rebuttal & refrain from mudslinging, please don’t bother. Critique is good… and I welcome it, but your metaphorical description of me is a bit immature…
You of course are free to write what you want, I won’t delete it, but you are embarrassing yourself. You are a published writer Good Cousin, please write like one.

Nancy, thank you for your post. I would like to clarify a few things. First, some of the dialogue between my friend and I is missing. There are gaps; making the reading not what I would call ideal. Thus some of what I may have written could be construed differently than my original intention. The cons of print! You’re absolutely right about him deleting what he wants from his wall; that is his prerogative. Notice too, that I have left his name out because it is the issue – not him – that is (I feel) of utmost importance. I did not attack him personally. I am not about that. He is a friend I have known for a long time and we seem to agree on almost everything but politics.

What I did attack is the way we human beings are controlled and brainwashed in our thinking; I also addressed how we are not mere mammals, and yet though we have stopped swinging from the trees, we still can’t seem to stop acting like we should still be up there.

We are indoctrinated to rally around a flag (Nazis did and Americans still do) in public schooling, we seem to believe all the propaganda spewed from the cable wires in our living rooms, we rally around a political party like they’re demigods. I have heard the mantra. “I’m a well informed American!” What is that exactly? What is a well informed anybody? WHERE are they getting their information? More on this in future posts.

We waste out time on Mindless computer games, quizzes, and other BS; only to whip a post out that is not thought out, not researched, not sourced and then get indignant when someone who has researched, has thought out & has sourced (but is open to ideas, suggestions and links to prove or disprove statements made), makes a rebuttal or gives the proverbial wake-up slap designed to get one thinking outside of the box. I have been there. It hurts when someone makes you feel stupid, or not good enough, and one can get bitter about it and go on a verbal assault; one can simply ignore that someone; or one can take it as a good natured challenge and step up.

I choose the latter. Anyone who knows me knows that I disapprove of name calling in these dialogues. We must all agree to disagree, but whether you agree or disagree, it should be backed up… because we all have ‘opinion’ and we know what they are like. Show us where you got your information.

This is the Pursuit of Truth. If I am wrong, I do not get bitter as some on my wall have done; I REJOICE. This means I have acquired more Knowledge, and we know that Knowledge is Power.

Paradigm shifts are not easily embraced.

I only have time for Nancy at this juncture, but will be on once more before our weekend starts in Taiwan (which is generally filled with Music and lotsa LUV). I would like if we could stick to the subject at hand. If you disagree what I have posted in part or whole, don’t give me shit, we are not on the playground, write a thought out rebuttal and teach me.

Nancy one more thing. You mention Freedom. I had this discussion the other day with a friend and will repost what I wrote to him. There are a few tidbits thrown in there for your reading pleasure. Would love to have your thoughts.

Some of you have read this before. Skip it if you’d like. 😉

GOVERNMENT AND FREEDOM

For me, it stands to reason, that present forms of Government are archaic; designed to lead the uneducated Masses. Though literacy is at an all time high (though waning in some sectors), the Enlightenment of the People is not. Indoctrination (i.e. public education) starts from 1st grade through high school on how to be good /robots/sheep. People feel this brainwashing is ‘just the way it is’… and parents perpetuate this vicious circle (the brainwashed are not in denial, they just don’t know they are brainwashed).

This is not the way it should be.

We talk about Freedom. Liberty. Human Rights. It is up to the People to live Free. The government cannot ‘give’ Freedom. We are Free. No one owns us. William Wallace when asked to bow down before ‘his’ King’ replied in effect, “I did not choose this King.”

It is up to The People to live Free regardless of Government. A government that ‘lets’ the People be Free? That very statement is an oxymoron bordering on paradox.
In the Words of Ol’ Ben: they that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.

And if I might add (at the risk of sounding pretentious) that they get neither as well. This is what I mean about the Patriot Act.

No one has died from a Terrorist attack in the States since 911, yet now they can bust into your house in the middle of the night on a whim, with no search warrant, because you ‘might’ be a terrorist. What they have found in these raids are not Middle Eastern men cloaked in a black cape and sinister smile with weapons of Mass Destruction (wait, isn’t that the reason we went to Iraq and Afghanistan? Where are the F%&*#N weapons then?), but some college kid growing a couple of plants so he and his buddies can have a little smokey smoke on the weekends (and they bust them anyway.)

Innocent until proven guilty is not the norm anymore, but the People accept it because they are brainwashed to think that their Benevolent Government is protecting them. Anyone working in a 9 to 5 job is NOT free. They are slaves.

I would like to get into the Money Illusion at another juncture.

How does one Serve one’s country, Fight for Freedom and Defend their Nation by invading an occupying another country (Amerika in Iraq for example)?   Isn’t that akin to protecting your house by raiding and occupying your neighbor’s house because you ‘suspect’ that he might have a really big gun in there somewhere?

I am glad that many of us are back in touch and having this dialogue.

Some of us have not seen each other since the late mid 80s I suspect, where in that time I ‘fought for my country’ by parachuting into other countries and doing what ‘we’ do best. Create Chaos and Confusion, Reek Havoc, Spread Disinformation, and when all else fails, kill the bastards. Don’t want to ramble and rant too much (as if I haven’t already), but the American People need to wake up and know that their government is not serving the Interests of the People. They are serving the interests of their Corporate Sponsors.

The president and his government do not run things, he is a  puppet. We want change? Then we build strong Communities with common ideals (say uhm… world peace, good health care and well rounded Community Education) and make the corporate governments non entities. Why? Because we are FREE to do so.

Again, thank you all for posting. Much Love.

Nancy M. Ogilvie
Paul, WOW–first of all I commend you on your passionate speech. When I read it, i feel the the full throttle of your energy, but the images in my head are messy and chaotic—like a montage of pictures and sound all overlapping one another. Pretty powerful vibration you got going on over there, but very chaotic. I can feel it from here! my is that you have the intellect and the passion to help raise the consciousness of our planet at a time when it is needed most. There is no accident that you are here now. But there are some things which are still missing and will hold you back in your mission. for starters, i would ask you to consider practicing detachment. In the third dimension in which we live we are governed by Universal Law–One of which is Law of Polarity. This means that everything exists alongside its polar opposite. True power comes from embracing both sides of anything–and seeing the blessings that exist in both the good + the bad, the right + the wrong.

Lisa Davis Owens
Dearest Cousin, here is another writing off the cuff because I dont have time to banter with you ar anyone else as I have books to write and publishers fighting over me & contracts to sort. After this I will desist. The 1st thing I want to say is that the reason you upset people is because you come across with passive aggresive superiority & arrogance, that puts people off. 2nd, there are people like yourself that enjoy never ending debates, & then there are those of us who see it as a waste of breath due to is never endingness, unless we agree with whatever the subject is. So if people delete your comments or walk away from you it just might be that they are not going to argue any more. Its kind of like the Bible reading Christians know that we are supposed to preach the word, but we are instucted to turn & kick the sand off our sandles and walk away if our preaching isnt accepted. Thus avoiding the “cramming it down the throat” reputation so many Christians have. Some people know when to walk away and some dont. 3rd, research…well I for one dont buy into research. As you like to preach, you cant believe what you read etc, well you believe things you read, you just pick & chose what you believe and what you dont. I on the other hand chose not to believe ANY of it. The way I see it is everything out there is propaganda put forth from one side of the subject or another and it is all a bunch of pelosi. Truth doesnt exsist any more. 4th, the Bible tells us to love our neighbor as we love ourselves, this is the only way to peace, and as long as there are ppl out there fighting for control or trying to outdo the jones’, peace will never happen & theres nothing you or I can do about it. I chose to accept the fact that the world is a big place and no matter what efforts are put forth, there is always someone to spoil it for the rest of us therefore peace is unobtainable. Which brings me to number 5…things are what they are so I will do what I can to change the things I can. For example, the reason the troops are in the middle east are irrelevent (MY NOTE: ???) since there is nothing I can do to change it, but what I can change is a soldiers life by showing him/her that I care about them as a person. I care and feel for the sacrifices they have made, no matter their reason for making them. Another example, an old friend of ours is in prison for murder, I cant change the fact he took another human beings life, nor the fact that he has to serve 35+ yrs in prison, but what I can do is write to him and let him know that I value the friendship we had & show him that life is to be valued. 6th, with all your knowledge & wisdom you should know to show respect to people even if they dont share your views.
Now, I dont want to cram my views down your throat, so I will desist.

(MY NOTE: You may not be able to tell from reading the above post, but Ms. Owens is a published writer).

Michael T. Lane
what is the polar opposite of a Twinkie? I’m enjoying the posts….I agree with you Paul. The powers that be have a vested interest in keeping people…I wouldn’t say stupid, or even misinformed…my opinion on that is pretty much as yours, but I would say of more import to governing bodies, they need people manageable…creating in the minds of the mass the same predictable responses to the same stimuli is the science of herd management. Most of the things that seem to irritate you about the American system, to me at least, stripped of any judgement, seem to have herd management as their goal.

6 billion+ on this planet and rising….either keep em at bay with guns or, if you’re clever, convince them to police themselves. Trick them into thinking it’s their individual choice that leads them to want the exact same thing as everyone else. The mental formulations that seem most easily manipulated are fear and its offshoots….a scared animal is the easiest to predict and thus control.

Nancy M. Ogilvie
Michael—a banana 🙂

Boston Paul
Lisa, you still are not addressing the main (relevant) topic(s) of this thread. It’s all good. Re-read previous posts, perhaps revise what you wrote, delete and write again.
It works for me.
But go ahead and desist if you’d like. 😉

Nancy, thank you for your sentiments. I will answer your questions & respond to your comments asap… but thank you for the insight. I get to know myself better everyday. Sometimes it’s frightening..

Feel free to comment on any post made in this thread (esp those topics of actual political nature in preference to those of a personal nature… but it is all good). Would love to have your thoughts. Don’t hold back.

We can agree that we want Peace&Truth. We just got to figure out a way to get Peace & Truth working together.

Cousin Avi
Thus far, most of the passionate posts here suffer from a particular form of myopia. “Herd mentality”…corporate masters…government puppets…(I’m shocked no one has said ‘Sheeple’ yet) versus “Research (and thus, one must suppose, truth / knowledge) is impossible because you can’t know what to believe” – as if, for example, the collected works thus far, most of the passionate posts here suffer from a particular form of myopia. “Herd mentality”…corporate masters…government puppets…(I’m shocked no one has said ‘Sheeple’ yet) versus “Research (and thus, one must suppose, truth / knowledge) is impossible because you can’t know what to believe” – as if, for example, the collected works of biology, chemistry and physics are somehow equivalent to Answers in Genesis.

The reason there are American troops in the middle east is anything but irrelevant, nor are the consequences of their presence there, regardless of whether you support or decry the fact.
The current yammering nonsense over health care reform is a crystalline example of what happens to reasoned debate in the face of ignorant certainty…and ignorance is by far the most damaging element.

Chomsky said, “There’s a really simple way to end terrorism – stop participating in it.”

The same might well be said for arguments that rely on false premise, reductio ad absurdum, ad hominem, post hoc ergo propter hoc, and all the rest of the weak crap people get up to when they’re trying to present a case in the absence of solid evidence.
The evidence is out there – hiding amongst the ginned up crap floated for the sole purpose of jamming up the tide. I don’t necessarily blame anyone for being distracted by the flotsam and jetsam, but it bothers me when folks assist in multiplying it.

There are facts, and there ARE qualities of reason. Abandon either at your peril.

Michael T. Lane
people find facts to support what they already believe…that you think you are somehow above it all is your own form of myopia…if society and the march of history had objective facts that led to objective conclusions, it would be hard science.

your need to condescend anyone who uses a linguistic sign you have a problem with shows more of an interest in catching people up in words and not, as you say, getting to substance.

if you don’t like the word “corporate master” what of it? You know what the person meant. It was only about 400 years ago that people were kneeling to real masters all over the western world, so if someone evolves the term to mean those that seem to have extended the absolute power of the monarchs, how is that proof of poor reasoning or anything else?

if you don’t like the words herd mentality, don’t use it. All language is subjective and people use it to paint the vision they want. All language is propoganda, yours included. Kill all the lawyers.

Rachel McPhail:

Paul, it seems to me that you want to be vindicated, or at least to set up a soapbox to pontificate from. That’s the only reason I can think of why you felt the need to post your public spat AGAIN. You wanted to pick a semantic fight because a man posted that he has a hero who made him believe it is possible to change the system. Guess what, Paul? It IS possible. Rosa Parks, MLK, and Gandhi proved that. And they are ALL products of their place and time, products of British/American separate-but-equal social and educational systems who would/could not have arisen in other countries. Most of us who read what you say are generally not fools or deluded people; we know that our governmental systems are far from perfect. We believe we have come a long way, but we know we still have a long way to go. You freely criticize the beliefs and positions of others, but you rarely offer a workable alternative. Sniping and grousing is not a workable plan for the future.

James Tinker

It seems to me that Paul’s post had absolutely nothing to do with Martin Luther King changing or not changing the system. He criticized the IDEA that Martin Luther King was able to change the system because America is great.

From the original post….
BP: My contention is not with your post praising a Great Man, a Prophet of sorts, a spokesmen and proponent of Peace. My contention is the correlation that is made with a Leader for Human Rights and the ‘American ideal.’

Martin Luther King was responsible for some great changes, but the changes were not made possible because he was in America. He could have been anywhere. He saw a problem with the place he was at, and he decided to fight the system.

I put IDEA in caps because I think it important to note that Paul was criticizing an idea, he wasn’t criticizing the person. If you’re not open to others challenging your ideas and beliefs, how can you grow as a person?

Boston Paul: Actually Rachel, it was simply because my facebook wall gets full quick and I wanted to keep the dialogue going before it got lost in the ‘older post’ void. Stop thinking so much sister… actually don’t stop thinking too much 😉

Thanks for the posts y’all.

1LUV

Boston Paul: Rachel just re-read your post… did you even read the thread in full? My sentiments and what you are posting now do not correlate, but it could just be the booze and slight hang over creeping up on me.

YOUR THOUGHTS?

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Published in: on March 22, 2010 at 2:53 PM  Comments (4)  
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  3. Tribal constructs like HTML, which I still continue to fuck up on a regular basis.

  4. Paul, it seems to me that you want to be vindicated, or at least to set up a soapbox to pontificate from. -one of the comment posters quoted in the main text this story for no apparent reason other than to dilute the intended message

    If only he used his soapbox to speak his mind more instead of sharing with so many other people.

    Boston Paul, I think you may be misusing the America/Amerika thing here. While I think greatness itself is largely media hype, a great American is somebody who strives to improve America, or an American citizen who strives to improve the world. King would be both. A “Great Amerikan” is a person who strives to turn America into AmeriKa or keep it there. A guy like Dick Cheney would be a Great Amerikan.

    You are right, in the end, we’re all just damn dirty apes anyway. But for understandability’s sake, it’s just easier to accept certain mental/tribal constructs. This is probably one of them.


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